be anywhere. you know, we're all educate canned, well -- connected. well, mostly. any device that's on your phone, your computer, in the future your refrigerator, anything that's on the internet you can get to from basically anywhere. so that's one of the things that makes defense difficult, right? so you don't have to just defend against your neighbor, you have to defend against the guy in belarus, so it's a whole different program. >> host: well, robert o'hara described you as a good guy hacker, a white hat hacker. what does that mean, and what's the motive of some of the black hat hackers? >> guest: okay. so the white hat, the good guy hackers like was explained, so, um, we're the guys who, you know, we develop skills to do the same thing that bad guys can do. so we can break into computers, but i instead of -- instead of stealing information and causing problems, we, you know, tell everyone what we did, try to work with vendors to make their products more secure, you know, give talks about security and how to make it better. and so we're -- while we can break in and do harm, we don't. w
